The Radeon HD 4850 & 4870: AMD Wins at $199 and $299
by Anand Lal Shimpi & Derek Wilson on June 25, 2008 12:00 AM EST- Posted in
- GPUs
AMD's RV770 vs. NVIDIA's GT200: Which one is More Efficient?
It is one thing to be able to sustain high levels of performance and altogether another to do it efficiently. AMD's architecture is clearly the more area efficient compared to NVIDIA.
Alright now, don't start yelling that RV770 is manufactured at 55nm while GT200 is a 65nm part: we're taking that into account. The die size of GT200 is 576mm^2, but if we look at scaling the core down to 55nm, we would end up with a 412mm^2 part with perfect scaling. This is being incredibly generous though, as we understand that TSMC's 55nm half-node process scales down die size much less efficiently one would expect. But lets go with this and give NVIDIA the benefit of the doubt.
First we'll look at area efficiency in terms of peak theoretical performance using GFLOPS/mm^2 (performance per area). Remember, these are just ratios of design and performance aspects; please don't ask me what an (operation / (s * mm * mm)) really is :)
Normalized Die Size | GFLOPS | GFLOPS/mm^2 | |
AMD RV770 | 260 mm^2 | 1200 | 4.62 |
NVIDIA GT200 | 412 mm^2 | 933 | 2.26 |
This shows us that NVIDIA's architecture requires more than 2x the die area of AMD's in order to achieve the same level of peak theoretical performance. Of course theoretical performance doesn't mean everything, especially in light of our previous discussion on extracting parallelism. So let's take a look at real performance per area and see what we get in terms of some of our benchmarks, specifically Bioshock, Crysis, and Oblivion. We chose these titles because relative performance of RV770 is best compared to GT200 in Bioshock and worst in Oblivion (RV770 actually leads the GT200 in bioshock performance while the GT200 crushes RV770 in Oblivion). We included Crysis because it's engine is quite a popular and stressful benchmark that falls somewhere near the middle of the range in performance difference between RV770 and GT200 in the tests we looked at.
These numbers look at performance per cm^2 (because the numbers look prettier when multiplied by 100). Again, this doesn't really show something that is a thing -- it's just a ratio we can use to compare the architectures.
Performance per Die Area | Normalized Die Size in cm^2 | Bioshock | Crysis | Oblivion |
AMD RV770 | 2.6 | 27 fps/cm^2 | 11.42 fps/cm^2 | 10.23 fps/cm^2 |
NVIDIA GT200 | 4.12 | 15.51 fps/cm^2 | 8.33 fps/cm^2 | 8.93 fps/cm^2 |
While it doesn't tell the whole story, it's clear that AMD does have higher area efficiency relative to the performance they are able attain. Please note that comparing these numbers directly doesn't yield anything that can be easily explained (the percent difference in frames per second per millimeter per millimeter doesn't really make much sense as a concept), which is part of why these numbers aren't in a graph but are in a table. So while higher numbers show that AMD is more area efficient, this data really doesn't show how much of an advantage AMD really has. Especially since we are normalizing sizes and looking at game performance rather than microbenches.
Some of this efficiency may come from architectural design, while some may stem from time spent optimizing the layout. AMD said that some time was spent doing area optimization on their hardware, and that this is part of the reason they could get more than double the SPs in there without more than doubling the transistor count or building a ridiculously huge die. We could try to look at transistor density, but transistor counts from AMD and NVIDIA are both just estimates that are likely done very differently and it might not reflect anything useful.
We can talk about another kind of efficiency though. Power efficiency. This is becoming more important as power costs rise, as computers become more power hungry, and as there is a global push towards conservation. The proper way to look at power efficiency is to look at the amount of energy it takes to render a frame. This is a particularly easy concept to grasp unlike the previous monstrosities. It turns out that this isn't a tough thing to calculate.
To get this data we recorded both frame rate and watts for a benchmark run. Then we look at average frame rate (frames per second) and average watts (joules per second). We can then divide average watts by average frame rate and we end up with: average joules / frames. This is exactly what we need to see energy per frame for a given benchmark. And here's a look at Bioshock, Crysis and Oblivion.
Average energy per frame | Bioshock | Crysis | Oblivion |
AMD RV770 | 4.45 J/frame | 10.33 J/frame | 11.07 J/frame |
NVIDIA GT200 | 5.37 J/frame | 9.99 J/frame | 9.57 J/frame |
This is where things get interesting. AMD and NVIDIA trade off on power efficiency when it comes to the tests we showed here. Under Bioshock RV770 requires less energy to render a frame on average in our benchmark. The opposite is true for Oblivion, and NVIDIA does lead in terms of power efficiency under Crysis. Yes, RV770 uses less power to achieve it's lower performance in Crysis and Oblivion, but for the power you use NVIDIA gives you more. But RV770 leads GT200 in performance under Bioshock while drawing less power, which is quite telling about the potential of RV770.
The fact that this small subset of tests shows the potential of both architectures to have a performance per watt advantage under different circumstances means that as time goes on and games come out, optimizing for both architectures will be very important. Bioshock shows that we can achieve great performance per watt (and performance for that matter) on both platforms. The fact that Crysis is both forward looking in terms of graphics features and shows power efficiency less divergent than Bioshock and Oblivion is a good sign for (but not a guarantee of) consistent performance and power efficiency.
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0g1 - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
In the article it says the GT200 doesn't need to do ILP. It only has 10 threads. Each of those threads needs ILP for each of the SP's. The problem with AMD's approach is each SP has 5 units and is aimed directly at processing x,y,z,w matrix style operations. Doing purely scalar operations on AMD's SP's would be only using 1 out of the 5 units. So, if you want to get the most out of AMD's shaders, you should be doing vector calculations.DerekWilson - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
The GT200 doesn't worry with ILP at all.a single thread doesn't run width wise across all execution units. instead different threads execute the exact same single scalar op on their own unique bit of data (there is only one program counter per SM for a context). this is all TLP (thread level parallelism) and not ILP.
AMD's compiler can pack multiple scalar ops into a 5-wide VLIW operation.
on purely scalar code with many independent ops in a long program, AMD can fill all their units and get close to peak performance. explicit vector instructions are not necessary.
gigahertz20 - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canu...">http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/ha...870-512m...The site above mounted an after market cooler on it and got awesome results. Either the Thermalright HR-03 GT is just that great of a GPU cooler, or the standard heatsink/fan on the 4870 is just that horrible. Going from 82C to 43C at load and 55C to 33C at idle, just from an after market cooler is crazy! I was hoping to see some overclocking scores after they mounted the Thermalright on it, but nope :(
Matt Campbell - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
The HR-03GT really is that great. Check it out: http://www.anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.a...">http://www.anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.a...Our 8800GT went from 81 deg. C to 38 deg. C at load, 52 to 32 at idle. That's also with the quietest fan on the market at low speed. And FWIW, I played through all of The Witcher (about 60 hours) with the 8800GT passively cooled in a case with only 1 120mm fan.
-Matt
Clauzii - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
I see no fan on that thing??! PASSIVE?? :O ??jeffreybt2 - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
"Please note that this is with a single Zalman 92MM fan operating at 1600RPM along with Arctic Cooling MX-2 applied to the base."magnusr - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
Does the audio part of the card support PAP? If not all blu-ray audio will be downsampled to 16/48...NullSubroutine - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
I would just like to point out that the 4870 falls behind the 3870 X2 in Oblivion while in every other game it runs circles around it. To me it appears to be a driver problem with Oblivion rather than an indication of the hardware not doing well there. Unless of course the answer lies in the ring bus of the R680?orionmgomg - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
I would love to see more benchmarks with the CPU OCed to at least 4.0All the CPUs you use can hit it NP.
Also, what about at least 2 GTX 280 Cards and their numbers. Noticed that you did have them in SLI cause the power comsumption comparisons had them, but you held back the performance numbers...
Lets see the top 4 cards from ATI and Nvidia compete in dule GPU (no punt intended)on an X48 with DDR3 1600 and a FSB of 400x10!
That would be really nice for the people hoe have performance systems, but may still be rocking out a pair of EVGA 8800Ultras, cause their waiting for real numbers and performance to come out - and their still paying off theye systems lol... :]
Ilmarin - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
You're probably aware of these already, but I'll mention them just in case:* Page 10 (AA comparison) is malformed with no images
* Page 21 (Power, Heat and Noise) is missing the Heat and Noise stuff.
Heat is a big issue with these 4800 cards and their reference coolers, so it would be good to see it covered in detail. My 7800 GTX used to artifact and cause crashes when it hit 79 degrees, before I replaced it with an aftermarket cooler. Apparently the 4870 hits well over 90 degrees at load, and the 4850 isn't much better. Decent aftermarket coolers (HR-03 GT, DuOrb) aren't cheap... and if that's what it takes to prevent heat problems on these cards, some people might consider buying a slower card (like a 9800 GTX+) just because it has better cooling.
Anand, you guys should do a meltdown test... pit the 9800 GTX+ against the 4850, and the 4870 against the GTX 260, all with reference coolers, in a standard air-cooled system at a typical ambient temp. Forget timedemos/benchmarks... play an intensive game like Crysis for an hour or two, and see if you encounter glitches and crashes. If the 4800 cards can somehow remain artifact/crash free at those high temps, then I'd more seriously consider buying one. Heat damage over time may also be a concern, but is hard to test for.
Sure, DAAMIT's partners will eventually put non-reference coolers on some cards, but history tells us that the majority of the market in the first few months will be stock-cooled cards, so this has got be of concern to consumers... especially early adopters.